An Interview with Jason Tocci

Jason Tocci defines himself as a hobbyist game designer at Pretendon Games. He is the author of 2400, an acclaimed and renowned tabletop role-playing game. He is also author of Agent of the O.D.D, QZ, Aetherway, Odd Luck Charms, Wastoid (WIP), and other games.

Mario | La esquina del rol: Hey Jason Tocci! Welcome to La Esquina del Rol! It is a real pleasure to have you here! Thank you so much! I am a big fan of your work as a game designer! I am very excited! How is everything?

Jason Tocci: Thank you for the kind words, and thanks for having me here! Things are busy for me lately, but more so in the parts of my life unrelated to game design. It has been tougher to carve out time for game design the last few weeks, so I'm trying to get back into a daily routine again, like I had last year thanks to Dungeon23.

Mario: Yeah, I understand you. Real life away from the hobby and game design is often a bit complicated. I hope you find the right time when you feel more comfortable to continue designing. I'd like to start this interview by asking you how you got into the hobby and then into designing TTRPG?

Jason Tocci: I got into the hobby when I was about … eleven or twelve years old, maybe? A friend from school introduced me to Dungeons & Dragons—AD&D 2nd Edition, I remember very clearly, because that sounded terrifically complicated. Once I realized that it was just describing stuff, though, I got really into it. We started playing with just the two of us, then gradually started bumping into other people playing similar games, like the old West End Games Star Wars, or the Marvel Super Heroes RPG, and later some games by Palladium. Then we started making our own games based on comics and movies we liked.

I played RPGs on and off through my teenage years, then not as much in college, and basically stopped in graduate school. That was kind of ironic, as I ended up writing a PhD dissertation on media and stereotypes related to “geeks” and “nerds,” and RPGs qualify, at least around here. Doing all that research made me pretty nostalgic for just getting to play pretend, I think.

So, after I finished my dissertation, I took a break from reading academic texts for a little bit, and I started up an RPG group again. And not too long after that, I got the urge to start hacking and designing my own games again. I ended up posting those to Google+, and later to Itch.io and DriveThruRPG and my blog at Pretendo.Games.

Mario: Oh, that is so cool! Thanks for sharing that with us. One of the goals of my interviews with game designers is to unravel their design processes. With that in mind, I wanted to ask you how you approach the design process for your games?

Jason Tocci: Ever since I was young, I've always taken a lot of notes—ideas for games, fiction, my to-do list, gifts for people, or even just little reminders scribbled on my hand with a pen just because I absolutely cannot forget them. (I didn't know until I was in my 40s that I have ADHD, but I imagine I got into this habit as a way of making sure I didn't forget things so much.) I used to do it all by hand, in notebooks; these days I still try to do some stuff by hand, but most ideas I record in the Notes app shared between my iPhone and my MacBook. So, most of the time, my game design process starts when something makes me think, "Oh, I'd like to put this into a game sometime," and then I take some notes on it.

I would love to claim that there's a very clear "step 2" next, but honestly, it gets a little murky after that. A lot of those notes never turn into anything. Some of them end up together in a kind of stew in my brain, and I think, "Oh, those might actually work well in the same game," and I take some more notes to see how that looks. Sometimes I just daydream off and on about an idea for a while until something makes me think, "Yeah, let's give that a shot." And I suppose "step 3" is when something makes me decide to give it a shot, which is when I put together a draft to run a playtest and/or share with other people for feedback. "Step 4" is when I release a playtested version of the game, and "step 5" is when I go back and fix errata.

(And if I'm to be honest with myself, "step 6" is when I start working on a much longer "revised edition," which I come to think of as the real version, and I keep forgetting that nobody else in the world but me has actually seen it).

(Agents of the O.D.D., Wastoid, and Grave are all in 6 step right now, and writing this sentence made me sigh audibly).

(Also, if this interview helps me find the time and energy to release a work-in-progress draft of even one of these in the next few days, you can tell everyone it's all thanks to you).

I make it sound very linear, but I suppose it isn't, really. There's a lot of back-and-forth between steps, especially when playtesting games that I mean to be played for long-term arcs, like Grave and Agents of the O.D.D. I ran each of those for months before I felt like they were ready to release.

The one exception to this process might be 2400, as I've approached it more like a collection of games that I keep adding to. And honestly, I have no idea whether that's a good idea from a business standpoint; it means it has become my bestselling game(s) by far, but of course, for all I know, it could be doing even better if I broke it up into smaller pieces and priced it differently.

For the sake of my own mental health and creative wellbeing, though, I've kept 2400 as it is for the time being. I have sort of a special creative process just for that series. I've noticed I tend to turn back to it when I feel burned out on other projects and need to do something to kind of creatively rejuvenate myself.

My design process for 2400 games is a little different because it has so many constraints going in. I have a template with tight space constraints—three pages plus a cover—and three specific goals:

It should be simple and self-contained enough that the GM could run it all by itself, as long as they're comfortable taking at face value that it's okay to wing it and fill in gaps in the rules.

The setting should be vaguely defined enough that the GM could somehow slot it into any—or every—other 2400 game, if they so choose.

It should try one other thing with the rules, setting or format that I haven't done in another 2400 game already, which players or GMs might be able to adapt for other 2400 games if they want. (Like: I don't need to put space ship modules in every game because you can grab them from Cosmic Highway; I encourage you to snag advancement rules and character upgrade options from Nuclear Family; and so on.)

(Technically, though, you could say 2400 is also in "step 6," just like those other games. That one also has a file on my hard drive with a big book version, collecting advice for play, hacking, and prep. I have too many work-in-progress projects.)

Mario: Very fascinating. Thank you for your response. Of course, design processes are never so linear, as you say, there is a lot of back and forth in this kind of creative process. What is interesting to me, more than being clear about the order of the big steps that authors like you follow, is to understand how the idea of that process is built. Because it is through these details that one can trace how an idea, whatever it is, is born and becomes a reality.

Well, back to you. I have to be honest and tell you that in Spanish most people know you from 2400. But before we talk about the game. If I were to ask you to give me a set of principles that guide the way you design role-playing games (any role-playing game you've designed, I'm not just talking about 2400), what would those principles be that would shape your design philosophy?

Jason Tocci: Ah, I feel like I should go find my copies of Apocalypse World and Electric Bastionland and cobble an answer together from those. They come at it from different directions, I suppose, but those games—and those designers' blog posts—have both been really influential on how I think about play and design. You may recognize bits and pieces from those games adapted in the text of some of my games, probably most noticeably in 2400: Emergency Rules.

The most consistent core principle I strive for is minimalism—or, at the very least, strive to avoid excess—in my designs.

My natural inclination is to talk for too long, write too many words, and design overly complicated rules. That might sound surprising, given how my games look by the time I publish them, but that’s why I love hacking other people’s (extremely simple) systems, like Into the Odd and Apocalypse World: It gives me a tiny kernel to build from and pare back down to when I get carried away.

I know some people have strong opinions about what games ought to do with their rules—how much their rules should guide play versus how much they should “get out of the way.” I used to have strong opinions about that kind of thing, once upon a time, and my opinions shifted back and forth over the years. Now, I feel like I can see the value of a range of design approaches, and I don’t think any one approach is inherently better than another. I’m just trying to make games I know I would personally enjoy playing with my friends.

Ah, I should probably add: I don’t mean to sound like I think I’m “above” those conversations about design principles, or what rules are for.

Honestly? I’m just … tired.

I’m at the point now where I have very little time in my schedule for gaming. I’ve been getting over a nasty case of long covid, so it has been months since I even played an RPG with anybody other than my six-year-old. Scheduling and logistics have just been really tough.

This has had a pretty profound effect on how I think about game design too, I suspect. It’s probably a big part of why I doubled down on “minimalism.” It’s not that I hate rules; it’s just that I don’t have the time or energy to get really invested in learning really crunchy, detailed stuff when I’m only going to be able to play for a couple hours at a time every few weeks, or maybe even every few months. That really shapes what I’m willing to play, and what I’m willing to design. It means I only want to handle rules that are super, super easy to explain and remember.

So, when I say that I’m not interested in conversations about what rules are for, or how much they should drive play, that’s not meant to knock anybody who is having those conversations. It’s just a reflection of how little bandwidth I have for anything other than what I actually want to do with this hobby. I want to spend more of my gaming time playing games, not arguing about them, you know?

Mario: I understand you perfectly. In fact, I embrace your dissertations on the subject. I was much older than you when I got into the hobby. I started with Pathfinder. I never felt comfortable with it, it was fun, but I got lost with so many rules and it really wore me out. Also, as I got older, I had less and less time and more and more responsibilities. I think that was one of the factors that led me to prefer minimalist designs and even solo RPGs, which give me more freedom with the little time and energy I have available.

What I find interesting about all this is that many designers I've interviewed tell me the same thing: they play less. Either because of what it takes to grow up and work, or because they are full-time game designers. It's really interesting and weird at the same time, you know? It's something I wasn't really expecting. But, then I understand that they're just like me and they're trying to do what they're passionate about even with the little time they have. It's nice to know that no one is alone in this.

Another topic I would like to explore with you is game mechanics. What mechanics fascinate you as a player or GM, and why?

Jason Tocci: Now there's an interesting question—my answer for favorite mechanics would be different for mechanics that fascinate me, I suspect, so now I have to think about it!

Well, I've already told you I'm overly wordy, so I hope you'll forgive me if I digress into an anecdote.

I mentioned that I got into RPGs through D&D and its direct descendants, and shortly after that, I started making my own hacks. So, in high school, I spent a great deal of time writing my own, lengthy rip-off of D&D, as that's what RPGs were to me. A friend of mine looked over it and tried to open my mind a little, but I just couldn't see past that horizon. So he took me to visit a friend of his, and we played a game of Castle Falkenstein. That game replaces dice-rolling with playing poker cards from your hand to choose how effective how you are at succeeding at an action.

This completely blew my mind.

Ever since then, I've been fascinated by RPGs that use cards in their mechanics for a range of purposes, especially those that play with fate in one way or another. I especially love using tarot cards for this, and even working in interpretation of their imagery in some way or another, given the symbolic dimension they bring to it. And it's convenient that they're numbered quite similarly to the dice we use in RPGs—you can even map the whole deck to a d100 table if you count the upside-down versions of the major arcana as unique results!

That's just one example of a mechanic that fascinates me as a player, a GM, and a designer, and why. To be honest, I've probably got a few dozen examples like that, and most of them probably have extremely detailed and personal stories behind them.

In general, though, I'm fascinated by mechanics that make me look at games in new (or new-to-me) ways; that don't demand much mental arithmetic; and that interact with the game's fiction, tone, or setting in neat ways. Like, the Jenga tower in Dread makes you feel dread. Playing tarot cards instead of rolling dice in an urban fantasy game makes you feel like you're grabbing fate by the horns.

(I said before that I would rather be playing games than arguing about them, but gushing about the ones I love … yeah, it's good to make time for that too.)

Mario: I think the mechanics that give a twist to what We know are always fascinating. Let's talk about 2400. I love it. To me it is a toolbox and I like to think of it that way. Because when I see it that way, it invites me to be part of the creation of the game experience. You know? It fascinates me.

I think the Orbital Decay module is my favorite, and I listen an interview with Yochai Gal a few days ago on YouTube, and He said that He loved that module in particular. I think the level of minimalism you achieved with that stress roll is incredible. Of course there are anecdotes and motivators that inspired the development of each module.

But, if you had to stick to just three modules, what would they be and why?

Jason Tocci: First of all: Thank you! I am glad you love it! And second: You would make me choose between my children?!

Okay, I kid, I kid. I do have an actual child, after all. If I had to keep only three 2400 modules, and never use any of the rest of them ever again? Oof.

I would probably keep Orbital Decay to run all my Mothership content … but I'd spend awhile hemming and hawing about whether I should keep Cosmic Highway instead.

I would probably keep Nuclear Family for the list of long-term character upgrade options (and also because it took an extraordinarily long time to do the visual design; it would feel like a waste to throw it away).

I would probably tell other people to hold onto Battle Moon because it explains combat better than any of the other games, and I personally think it has the best cover—I mean, come on, there's a robot in a loin cloth wrestling a lion—but I've internalized those guidelines myself by now.

I would strongly consider whether I need to keep Xenolith or Eos to run something inspired by Mass Effect … and then I'd remember that I compulsively hack things to run Mass Effect every couple years anyway, so I might as well just make something new anyway.

At the end of the day, though, I'd probably get the most use out of Habs & Gardens, since it's kid-friendly, and I play with my kid more than anybody else, so I'll hang onto that one.

Mario: hahaha, sorry, it's hard to answer the question even for me.

So, I don't know if you are still active on dice.camp because I have abandoned it a bit. But I remember your posts a lot because they are always very interesting. For example, I remember when you posted the possibility of a single stat game, and it was something I read last year that made a lot of sense to me at the time. It was very interesting to see how you developed your ideas in dice.camp on that topic like little capsules of a design diary. I know you've been busy lately and haven't had enough time to dedicate yourself to design. But, I would like you to share with us what are your concerns right now as a designer? Are you still interested in the idea of ​​a single stat or is there something new dominating your mind?

Jason Tocci: "Made a lot of sense to me at the time" applies to us both, as it turns out, and even more than you realize. I better explain this one!

This is a bit personal and awkward, but I've already mentioned publicly that long covid slowed down my progress on game design, so I might as well provide a bit more clarity on what exactly I mean by that.

I don't forget 2023, exactly … but I don't really remember it all very clearly, either. Most of the year, I suffered from debilitating migraines, fatigue, and brain fog every day. It's only really recently, since I started a new migraine treatment, that I started feeling like I've been waking up from a dream, and have been realizing how cut off from those memories I feel. I can get back to them if I go looking for them, but it takes some effort.

My favorite example so far: I was really looking forward to the new book in a certain series of urban fantasy novels I've been reading for a while. The main character got killed in the last book and went to hell! How's he going to get out of this one? But when I got the new book just the other day and opened it up, I saw that I'd already read the next book in the series … in 2023. Apparently I'd spent months looking forward to a book I'd already read, but had no recollection of it whatsoever.

So I'm reading it again. And it's fun! It feels familiar—like, I can tell I've read it before, but I couldn't tell you what's going to happen in it because I don't actually remember it.

Now, I must apologize for this rather long digression. I thought it might be helpful before I address your other questions, though, and I figured it might offer some context for all those other times I've told people online that my games are delayed due to "health issues."

Long covid's pretty bad! Please wear a mask when you're sick, and when you have covid, rest much more than you think you need to.

Now, as for your actual questions… I have no recollection whatsoever of writing this dice.camp post, but it sure sounds like something I would write! Let's take a closer look…

My concerns as a designer differ depending on which game we’re talking about. (But that’s my precilsely problem, I think. I’ll come back to that.)

With Alight as in the example you linked above, I’ve been concerned with a sort of balancing act, as I see it, inspired by Numenera.

Some of that is a very clear and direct inspiration, as in the science-fantasy setting, carrying a limited capacity of unstable relics, and characters defined by a trio of qualitative terms—a [trait] [class] with a [quirk] (or whatever I end up calling them). But I also see it as a balancing act in trying to appeal to RPG players who come to the hobby through D&D—players who are comfortable rolling a d20 and hoping for a 20, players who like rolling the funny shaped dice in fight scenes —and seeing if I can keep any of their interest even after I trim out most of the rules. That’s not a marketing goal or anything; it’s just an interesting challenge to me, and a basic reality to consider given who’s available to help playtest.

(That’s what I had in mind with the “single stat” approach, by the way—not that you would add Strength to rolls, but that you wouldn’t add anything to rolls at all. You might roll an extra die, or even a bigger die, though, if you have a relevant trait. I suppose that brings up another goal I have as a designer, more generally: coming up with excuses to use my d30.)

I have different design concerns, of course, for Wastoid, a hack of Knave for post-apocalyptic settings, strongly inspired by the Fallout video game series.

I’m drawn to the bleak humor in that sort of setting, but also the hopefulness, the theme of rebuilding. I’ve put a lot of time into reworking things like how “junk” works in the rules and the setting. Unlike with Alight, where I feel free to strip as much out of the material that inspired it as I want, it’s important to me here to make the game easy to “hack” and run with other OSR material. It feels practical, like it will make it easier to run the game, but also in keeping with the theme of cobbling something together from whatever junk you’ve got.

And those are different design concerns, of course, from QZ, which I’ve been gradually revising for a print-on-demand release for an awfully long time. (Mostly I just wanted to redo it with all CC-licensed art this time around, A5 pages, and a few edits, like longer lists of artifacts and anomalies.) And those are different design concerns from Agents of the O.D.D., which has its own revised version in the works, and so on.

Really, though, my greatest concerns right now are more as a self-publisher, trying to figure out how to get a long-form project across the finish line. I have no problem with deadlines, clients, and project management in a day job—but clearly I’ve been trying to juggle too many projects “for fun” for too long. Now that I’ve got the long covid under control, I’m eager to wrap some projects up finally.

Mario: I think it's great and hopefully you'll be able to get some of these projects done soon. I send you my best vibes. I encourage my readers to look at your work beyond 2400, because there is so much more behind this great game.

It's been great getting to know you a bit better and exploring your ideas about RPGs. It's really great to chat with you. Before we close, and without committing to anything, what do you see yourself doing in the medium term in terms of game design?

Jason Tocci: As for me, I'm trying to keep my design goals modest: Finish the projects I've already started before I start new ones. In the short term—starting this month, I hope—that means spending more time actually playing my own games, both because I enjoy it and because that's part of my design process.

(I'll be starting a Wastoid game soon, and also want to run Grave sometime this year to test out the adventure I made for the Dungeon23 dungeon-room-a-day design challenge over the course of last year. That should be an interesting experience, given the aforementioned odd memory issues from 2023. Perhaps I'll get to surprise myself with my own adventure!)

Sometimes I find it soothing to just do some small edits and layout work on a game that's not "the big game I'm focusing on right now," which is how I've managed to get a bunch done on QZ revisions even as I've been focusing primarily on Wastoid. I'm hopeful I'll be able to release a print-on-demand version of that soonish as well.

And, of course, I have plenty of other projects on my plate, as noted earlier—a 2400 book I keep chipping away at, a revised edition of Agents of the O.D.D., and Alight, which I wrote a great deal of, commissioned a cover for, and drifted away from partway through when long covid brain fog made it hard to remember what I was doing with it. (So thanks for prompting me about that earlier—it was genuinely helpful!)

Oh—but if you mean not just which projects, but what kinds of things will I be designing, then I can say this: Working on Wastoid and revising Agents of the O.D.D. has made me keenly aware that I really need more practice with adventure design, specifically. I expect to put a lot more thought into that going forward, and much earlier in my design process than I had in the past.

Mario: That sounds great! I will be very attentive to your projects. This interview has made me very happy. I thank you very much for your time and it has been an honor to have you here. Thank you very much Jason!

Jason Tocci: It has been an honor to be here! Thank you very much, as well!

A few days after finishing this interview, Jason let me know that he posted an update on Wastoid.